EVE Search - Exploration and Scan Probing in Kali

All Channels

Revelations Testing and Development

Exploration and Scan Probing in Kali

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:05:00 - [1] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo What is needed is a corelative selection between scanner results and system map blip displays, ergo: John pops out a probe, runs scan whilst switching into system view, receives overlay of results in system view, rolls mouse over scan result in scanner window and/or selects it, corresponding with a blip on system map that lights up a shade brighter accordingly. You should be able to extrapolate which result is which given that the systemmap lets you know type and distance; this change would make life a mite easier but the functionality's basically already there. Also, I don't recommend using snoops to look for cosmic signatures, they don't have the power.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:39:00 - [2] Originally by: Sunaria Originally by: Joerd Toastius Also, I don't recommend using snoops to look for cosmic signatures, they don't have the power. what do you recommend then ? Sift probe + scan probe launcher + covops + covops skill 4 + signal acquisition skill 3. Only way to get a reliable result.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:22:00 - [3] Although "short" is still relative - yes, there's a ten minute base cycle, but with maxed skills you can run a racial probe in two and a half minutes, which will pretty much find everything bigger than a spent 1400mm round* within 64AU, give or take. *May not be strictly true. Also, from what I've read, deviation is based on signal strength but with a random multiplier, so it's not going to drop out exactly.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:29 Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:13 Originally by: Hoshi The one test I did run returned all results that was in any of the bubble not just the intersection, those in the intersection just had much higher signal strength (0.94 instead of 0.45). I think this is intended functionality.] Also, the bubble-movement thing just seems to be part of the general problem with the system map, namely that non-celestial graphics - jump lines, bubbles, part of the sun graphic etc - all move along with the "you are here" arrow when you warp. This does make the rendered bubbles pretty but useless, and I assume this'll be fixed by launch because it's a pretty glaring error as it stands. {edit} The problem with multi-probe drops is finding cases where they're actually viable, particularly with the longer-range probes. A lot depends on the exact positioning of celestials, particularly if you want to avoid spending all day making safes to probe from. Need to find/look at the math for two overlapping weaker probes vs one strong etc, I guess...
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:53:00 - [5] As above the bubble rendering issue seems to be just that they remain stationary in relation to the "you are here" sign when you warp. It seems that the map treats all non-celestials this way, which is a problem. Guess it would be useful if it does the same with gangmates shown in space. Interestingly though scan results do stay properly stationary. And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience...
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:45:00 - [6] What the Kali changes are basically going to do is bring more gate camps, because you're going to have to wait in the next system until you're ready to engage, I guess. That or sit at a POS, because as it stands I can find any ship within 64AU within three minutes. As to the lack of skill thing, yes, to a degree this is true, and I'm not entirely happy with it, but it's not that bad, IMO. That's not a final opinion though.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:51:00 - [7] Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.12 13:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans. Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC).
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:56:00 - [9] Any fleet commander without scouts should be shot ;) And yeah, the impression I get is that we're losing the voodoo (which I'll miss), we're losing the difficulty in individual scans, but that's to some degree being compensated by the fact that you'll now be doing a lot more scanning and it will likely become even more time-sensitive than it is currently. I'm not entirely happy with the changes, but I'm not going to complain about them, because I think they're "OK". I'd like to keep some of the voodoo, but I can live comfortably with probes being more useful and more used even if they're less interesting than they were before.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Joerd Toastius And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience... Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans. Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC). Originally by: Joerd Toastius Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 14/11/2006 22:45:14 Edit: by the way, are the sift probes considered bugged because they need a Covert Ops to be used or was that intentional? Not actually true. All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. If you get this to level 5 and signal acquisition to 4 your cycle time comes down to 270s, which is just enough time to do a sift scan (15s cooldown leaves you five seconds to start the analysis)
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 15/11/2006 12:23:39 Originally by: Langhorn Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. Amarr have the Anathema which gives the bonus to astrometrics modules, and its 10% not 5%. Quote: The Imicus is a slow but hard-shelled frigate, ideal for any type of scouting activity. Used by merchant, miner and combat groups, the Imicus is usually relied upon as the operation's eyes and ears when traversing low security sectors. Special Ability: 5% bonus to drone range per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: The Heron has good computer and electronic systems, giving it the option of participating in electronic warfare. But it has relatively poor defenses and limited weaponry, so it's more commonly used for scouting and exploration. Special Ability: 5% bonus kinetic missile damage per skill level 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: The Probe is large compared to most Minmatar frigates and is considered a good scout and cargo-runner. Uncharacteristically for a Minmatar ship, its hard outer coating makes it difficult to destroy, while the limited weapon hardpoints force it to rely on fighter assistance if engaged in combat. Special Ability: 5% bonus cargo capacity per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometric modules by 5%/level Further, 294s activation time leaves you 11 seconds short because you cannot begin analysing your scan until the scan probe launcher finishes its activation cycle, which takes fifteen seconds. The probe starts counting down as soon as it's launched at the beginning of the cycle. If you try using a sift with a 294s activation time your probe will expire at least eleven seconds before your scan finishes.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:30:00 - [13] Helison is right in that it's just not feasible to do exploration without sifts, because (last time I checked) nothing else will get you close enough. The changes to maximum deviation may change that, I don't know, but certainly last time I checked there was no point trying without sifts. As it stands you need frigate V (not Amarr) or Covops 3 or so to use them at all. Reducing cycle time on scan probe launchers is not really an option as it makes it overpowered at higher levels, so the only change you could make usefully is to increase the flight time of sifts. However, I'm not 100% convinced that this is necessary - yes, you need sifts to do exploration, but you don't need them for more mundane tasks such as hunting down parked/safed ships. "Faction" probes have uses besides exploration, so it's not a de facto problem that some of them are usable at skill levels where sifts aren't.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Hoshi Personally I see little reason why you should be forced to use covert ops for exploration, when I first read about it I imagined someone in a BS with an offline probe launcher in a spare high. Onlineing and using it to explore when needed. This is doubly the case in 0.0 - the plexes I've been finding haven't been tankable in the Zealot I have in the area, let alone a covops ship. It's going to be a "back to base to change ships" job at the very least... Originally by: Hoshi Also have your tried using 2-3 comb probes instead? That might get you close enough without sift. No, not yet. I'll try and get a chance to check this at the weekend... Originally by: Dutarro Has anyone found out yet whether deadspace signatures have race-specific signal strength? And if so does it correspond to the type of NPCs found in that deadspace? (radar for Sansha, for example) Have found no difference between drones and Guristas so far, but my data are inconclusive
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Arilanus Doshenko Scan probes launchers may need a COVOPS ship to get the time down, but Recon Probe Launchers don't. Base cycle time of 120 seconds. Yes, and you can't fit sift (or any other exploration) probes in a recon launcher, so it's entirely useless for the problem at hand.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Steppa Has CCP said anything about the new scanning system and the old "2D" plane the old scanner worked on? In other words, will the new probes and scanners work on more than just a 2AU deep donut around the ship doing the probing? Yes, they do. Certainly all exploration probes are entirely 3D, and I imagine the ship scanning ones are too. Originally by: Commander Spectre 2. The analysis takes 3 times as long I used to scan with the 3au snoop probes in 120 seconds (2 min.), now they take 360 seconds (6 min.) which is accually longer than the probe will last making them usless. There is a new skill however that is supposed to give you 10% faster scanning, but I had allready trained astrometrics which was supposed to do that. Now I gotta train yet another skill Astrometrics now adds one scan group per level. So you have to train it up to level 5 to show everything I guess. Pointless IMO. Just more stuff to waste my valubale training time. Everything should be shown to begin with. If you're using snoops (ship hunters), use a Recon Probe Launcher. It starts at 120s and can be brought down to 30s with maxed skills.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:57:00 - [17] Gah, I go afk for 24 hours and the entire dynamic of fleet combat in Kali changes again... more testing needed I guess :P Originally by: Steppa Probe launchers that actually let you fire a probe at a celestial object, such as planets/moons/belts, would be awesome. Moon probes already function like this
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Hoshi So yes finding a single small ship in a deepsafe is going to take a while... That is one of the reasons I want to scan and find ships: scavenging. With the way Observator works, this means I have a lot less chances (unless I spend like hours scanning the same system... slaps head in pain) to find a ship I don't know is in the system and I cannot scan for (i.e. deep safe spot). On my 30 scans I found the Stiletto twice on the first 10 scans, once on the next 10 scans, 0 (ZERO) times on the next 10 scans. The solution to this, if it is indeed an issue, is another 1000au range probe which simply lists all applicable objects in the system but makes no attempt to actually locate them. This gives you a complete list of present items without giving you too much of a head-start actually finding them. If you wanted to make exploration less directional-scanner-based, you could have a complete sized set of these and remove deadspace signatures from the scanner, so you have to work out where to probe using probes rather than the scanner. This would probably lead to cargo space issues fairly quickly though.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:49:00 - [19] I need to get on and test the latest changes properly. Certainly when I was testing under the "old" system each find would stay put for several days.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Zallazaer Originally by: Helison Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb. Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0 I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level. Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate..... Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here. It is a joke, right? So the deadspace complex needed for the data interface and datacore for invention require some undred of scanning to find one (probably not the right one ), then to go and explore immediatly in a probe fitted ship, with hacking and archeology scanners in the hope of finding the data cores and interfaces. And then someone say that the datacores and interfaces will not be monopolized by the big alliances. Who has the time/resources to launch hundred of probes in a system and then immediatly storm the location found? After the 4-5 unsuccessful expedition with a small fleet to defend and support the researcher a small corp will send him to the deepest hell. Well, if it helps any the gas clouds I found last week are still there, as is a drone encounter I found at around the same time. I just reprobed the latter, went two jumps to get my ship and came back and it's exactly where I left it
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 17:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: *Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult) How is range to target tied in to this? If you simply slot the compound strength into the existing single-probe equation, what values do you use for probe range and range to target? Originally by:** Helison BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength Current problems ) Too low scan deviation ) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes ) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. ) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) ) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature. My proposals (not all are cumulative):* a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target. c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght. e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better. g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation. I certainly agree with f) (and e), obviously) but I'm not sure that the current exploration probe system is a problem; the space you're hunting should hopefully inform your probe choice, and the reduced volume of probes makes it feasible to spam Quests all over the system and then run several analyses until you find something. It does make it slightly more grind-y, but I'm not convinced it needs a total overhaul yet.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:50:00 - [22] Ah, gotcha - thought strength meant scan strength not signal strength, my bad :) Is it possible that it's just giving you the deviation you'd get if you used a single probe, so it's considering multiple probes for sig strength but not for deviation?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Donna Darko e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. Missing the point. A "system summary" probe would mean you can just pop one probe per system initially to see if there's anything worth probing for, and if not you can move on without wasting any probes. If you're serious about looking for stuff it'd significantly cut down on your probe use. Originally by: Helison At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes. Faction probe sizes were cut down significantly in the last set of changes, so you can now carry plenty in your hold. My only concern there is on their price.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:56:00 - [24] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 24/11/2006 16:56:46 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 24/11/2006 15:47:59 Update: New mirror on sisi which means any probe skill you trained there is gone. Add this the fact that the nither the new probes skills nor the new probes are seeded any more on sisi and the fact that all spots with ships/bms etc I had setup to test it are gone. Basically it just become VERY hard to do more probe testing there. Oh and the 2 major probe bugs (right click and warp to on results on system map takes you to the wrong results and the fact that you can launch a probe so another probe is completely inside its scan radius) are still there. Aye, makes it pretty hard to test any more without the time reduction skill in particular. Oh well.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.24 23:24:00 - [25] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 24/11/2006 23:23:41 Originally by: Donna Darko Edited by: Donna Darko on 24/11/2006 22:52:19 Do you think we can convince them to finally add the circles for the directional scanner in the tactical overview (or something)? example P.S. TomB I love you! (for the BPOs on the market) Circles are limited utility though. A 3D cone on system map would be much better.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/11/2006 07:49:11 I have found a serious problem: On tranquility I have just done a COSMOS mission requiring to find the hidden warpgate to Jakela Plantation in the system Hjoramold. It was pretty easy to find with the 3 AU probes. As it was still open in Sisi with the last mirror, I tried to find the warpgate with the new probes and Astrometrics 4. So far I have used 5 Fathom, 2 Spook and 11 snoop, and done at least 30 scans without finding the gate. Similarly I can't find the warpgate on the directional scanner. Looking the list of item you can scan for I suppose a warpgate should be a structure. Some of you has an idea or suggestion on how it is possible to resolve this impasse, or can scan the system to see if the warpgate can be found only with the highest tyer probes? If you find it I would be VERY interested to know the signal strenght and the distance at wich you have detected the warpgate. TY for any help. You need exploration probes for that sort of thing I think - normal ship-hunting probes simply aren't strong enough Also, I believe "structures" finds POS structures mainly.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:35:00 - [27] Yup, that's my understanding. Hire someone with astrometrics to help you ;)
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:56:00 - [28] Fair point, I guess. I suppose you'll just have to try and find someone with a good rep or something... The guide you're after is here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=431586 Most of it's Hoshi's work, I just tacked on the exploration-specific bits :)
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 15:53:00 - [29] Oh awesome, they've finally fixed the "white background" bug

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.